Episode 17: Jason Greenwood

Jason teaches us how to craft end to end customer experiences online by dragging brands kicking and screaming into a New Retail future.

In this episode we discuss:

  • How many opportunities brands have to create an experience and one excellent example
  • Why you must be building out impeccable experiences across all your touchpoints
  • Customers expect perfection, what it means when you don’t achieve that and how it can be good
  • Creating effective feedback loops

See Jason on LinkedIn here.

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Click here for the RAW unedited transcript
[0:00:01] George Reid: Welcome to It’s Always Day One. My name is George Reid, a former Amazonian turned Amazon consultant. Each week on the podcast, you’re going to hit industry experts. Brand owners on Amazon employees share their answers to the basic yet fundamental questions. You should be asking yourself about your Amazon business. Now, let’s jump in. Hello, Jason. Thank you. Firstly, for coming onto the podcast. Really appreciate you taking the time out of your day to sit down with May joining Give us a quick, 32nd overview of who you are, what you’re doing. And how you how you got into this world of Amazon?

[0:00:35] Jason Greenward: Yeah. Great. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, My name is Jason. I’m based here in Auckland, New Zealand. I’m actually originally American Ben in New Zealand for about 24 years now. Started my career in digital, actually, here in New Zealand, in Christ Church, where I originally moved to when I first moved to New Zealand. I started out in the agency space that I had my own e commerce pure play for 7.5, almost eight years on. Then I went back agency side again that I’ve worked merchant side for one of New Zealand’s. Actually, New Zealand’s largest online retailer of natural health products, was my previous role. And now I’m a director in a digital agency based here in Auckland on Sydney.

[0:01:11] George Reid: Nice. Quite quite a quite a variety there. You being an orphan company for about North and the New Zealand for about 20 years, right?

[0:01:20] Jason Greenward: Yeah, 20 almost 20. Just over 24 years.

[0:01:23] George Reid: As you mentioned you, the day you’re still somehow not a rookie found, which I find quite quite astounding, to be honest, given how much you obviously surrounded by that brand, that is Theobald blacks, perhaps one of the most strong brands in the sporting world that I’m aware of that issue. I don’t know how you’re not a fan.

[0:01:42] Jason Greenward: Oh, yeah. Look, I’ve never really been in tow rugby. I’m a motor sport guy. So Moto GP, I’m into motorbikes in the jet skis. I mean, anything you know, in the car, fast cars, fast motorbikes. Basically anything with an engine is, uh I think I have petrol running through my through my veins. It’s been a lifelong obsession with motor sport, so that’s that’s That’s my leaning, but yeah, look, you know, the All Blacks are are absolute international icon and and definitely draw, you know, and non covert times. Definitely a big draw for for New Zealand. There’s no question about that,

[0:02:15] George Reid: Indeed. Now, if we shift over Toto Amazon and get things kicked off with the question that really opens up many different answers. And that is what one thing would you be doing right now to create sustainable success on Amazon?

[0:02:30] Jason Greenward: Oh, look at that zoo that it’s hard to give. Ah, super succinct answer to that. I think that any business that’s looking at going on Amazon, whether they whether they’ve been on there for a while or whether they’ve been on there for first time for the first time and they’re looking at listing on Amazon the products on Amazon for the first time, Um, I think they very much need to view. Amazon is a friend of me in sort of the best case scenario. Uh, you know, Amazon is proven time and again, and I think this is pretty open knowledge that that they will cherry pick based on their vast data set across all sales that happen across their platform. They will cherry pick categories to go after that, they know are both generating a lot of sales and that they could make, you know, decent margin on. So, basically, if you’re just a me too retailer on Amazon, you’re going to really struggle because you’re a not gonna just have a lot of competition from other retailers selling the exact same things against you on Amazon, which makes it an automatic race to the bottom in terms of price. But then you’re ultimately probably gonna end up competing if you’re not already competing with Amazon itself directly if you’re operating in a major categories. So I think I think differentiation is probably the first thing I would say is that if you can’t differentiate beyond price, you’re going to really struggle on Amazon. So I’d say, you know, exclusive ranges, exclusive products, being, you know, being a D. D. C brand A direct consumer brand, if you’re manufacturer gives you automatic advantage because you you just won’t have any direct competition on Amazon maybe similar products, but not for your exact product. So that would be My thing is, is differentiation. Um in curation is absolutely critical on Amazon. Otherwise we’re going to really struggle.

[0:04:07] George Reid: Yeah, I think it’s becoming on some faster. Is becoming easier to differentiate because of the features that Amazon are releasing their continuously giving you more possibilities with, with storefronts continuously changing with some of the features that got on a plus and what sort of jazz with what you could do with promotions and appetites. And there’s more opportunities, I think, to differentiate. Been in the same token, If you make the comparison something like Shopify, it can be still quite difficult to differentiate in terms of your your overall experience. Would you agree or

[0:04:43] Jason Greenward: Yeah, look, I still think it. I still think, you know, even even in a owned e commerce environment, you still have to differentiate right? If you’re a if you’re a me too retailer in New Zealand or Australia, which is the markets that I operate in the head markets, if you’re just another me to retailer, um, you know and let’s let’s say there’s five of you operating in the same vertical all on Shopify. You know, have you know different look and feel have a different experience on your websites, but you’re effectively selling the exact same products that virtually the same price. It becomes a really difficult thing to try to differentiate against other retailers. So being a me too aggregator retailer eyes very, very difficult, and it’s only going to get harder moving forward and discovery. You know, search engine discovery means that your competitors are just a single click away from a search results page and eso differentiation is difficult no matter what platform you’re on, unless you have a truly differentiated product offering or the experience around that is differentiated enough, meaning you are bringing so much value to the experience, whether it be the shopping experience, the buying experience or the user experience and the delivery experience. If you’re not, if you’re not differentiating across every facet off the buying life cycle Theun yeah, you’re gonna find it hard. I don’t I don’t care what platform you’re on or what channel you’re selling through.

[0:06:09] George Reid: Yeah, that’s completely right. I really liked me Thio mindset and how you applied it there Thio Brand to just go Oh, yeah, we do that as well. We do that as well and it’s kind of Oh, yeah, we put it, You know, I talk a lot about putting these insert cards inside of your packaging, and that’s quickly becoming even now. Oh, yeah, we do that. But then there’s so many of the different ways of that unboxing experience to go. Let’s do something different here. How can we connect with our customer how we make them feel something? I mean, what is what are some of the better examples you’ve seen off brands at the moment where they have differentiated that they’ve added value?

[0:06:49] Jason Greenward: Yeah, look, I finally, enough. I actually believe that Health Post, my previous employer where I was e commerce manager for nearly four years, um, is actually a brand in New Zealand that has has has gone through. And it’s excruciatingly deep dive, discovery in design, thinking around every experiential aspect of the business. And and that extends to the unboxing experience. It extends to the shipping experience on they went through multiple iterations of packaging design using, you know, because they’re they’re an eco conscious business. Andrea Lee, an earth conscious business being a natural products retailer. They you know they’re going for, you know, uh, you know, biodegradable inks, nontoxic inks for all the all the prints on the packaging their their their packaging is actually well branded. It has a lot of their, I guess, ethical pillars printed directly the actual carton experience the as you look at their carton from the outside, a lot of their ethical pillars are actually printed directly on the outside of the box, along with heavy branding on the outside of the carton, along with talking about how the packaging, you know, using recycled cardboard, for example. Nontoxic inks biodegradable. Uh, Phil, uh, internal where you can, you know, calm, possible packaging. Basically eso, I think I think that, you know, consumers are actually becoming much more wise. Not all, obviously. But there’s definitely a movement among consumers to have conscious consumerism entering into their their realm of consciousness now. And they’re actually starting to think about what is the impact of what I’m buying, not just in terms off that product that I’m bringing into my home, but how it got into my home. I’m actually thinking about the entire process of that product, from the point where it was conceptually, you know, a concept to how it was designed to, how it was manufactured to how it was sold and shipped to me on. Then what is gonna happen to it when I go to dispose of that item that I no longer need to use anymore? So I think, you know, conscious consumerism is definitely becoming. It’s not just the buzz word anymore. I think it was for a long time, but it’s definitely becoming a much bigger consideration for for all brands. Frankly,

[0:09:00] George Reid: yeah, I think you touched on to on to great things there. One was that experiential on all the different touch. Once you’ve got there of how we can it create different experience Long hallway, because I mean, there is an experience, and then there’s an experience. So there’s the unboxing experience, which for many is unthought of experience that you subconsciously you’re not really you’re just going through the motions whereas what you’re talking about, there isn’t like we’re looking to create an experience out off that on boxing because we’re talking about are pillars were reinforcing that message, which perhaps tying nicely into why they perched in the first place. So it’s encouraging them to feel good. I would imagine about that whole experience off. They’ve bought this. Maybe it was a little bit more expensive than they would like. That is a little bit of a treat for himself. There’s a little bit of guilt, but then the unboxing experience is lovely. They’re feeling good about it, reinforcing have done something good for the environment by buying with a product that uses body. Grabbed a link by buying a box that is fully compostable on all of these details of building out to that experience, which makes that customer feels something invokes an emotion. I think if you just think that I’d love to dig into them a little bit, Mawr that health post, I’m guessing they’ve done it at that one point with the Unboxing. But have they then looked at every single aspect, every single experience out there on look, to replicate and go right? How can we create more of an experience here? What can we do? Let’s get the white board out. What can we do to create an experience? Is that something to doing this? Well,

[0:11:02] Jason Greenward: absolutely. And they’re doing that across a zoo. Say they’re pretty much applying design led thinking on experience led thinking across the whole of the business. And even when I was still in the business, one of the major projects we went through was a product ATTRIBUTION project and that that, you know, required the brand to go out toe over 200 product suppliers and, um, you know, collect product attributes information about those products so that it could be surfaced on the Web site in a meaningful way, right down through product attributes that were Phil Trible on categories to product attributes that were displayed on product ages. You know, part of the navigation structure so that people could search and find products, not just by, you know, like a supermarket shopping where you were walking down an aisle and you know the categories in the products during those categories, but shot by methodologies and shopping by specific attributes of those products s so that they can, you know, so that they can effectively have ah have a browsing experience that is very much, um experiential, you know, in a a guided navigation experience based on what is important to that customer, based on those dietary concerns based on health concerns based on ethical considerations, you know, whether it’s vegan or vegetarian or halal or kosher, based on on on whether you know, and even extending to the alliances and the partnerships that they have with their suppliers. And putting pressure on those suppliers to become an aligned brand by reducing the amount of packaging that’s used in their products, the type of packaging that’s used, the type of ingredients that they will allow in products that they sell, you know, trying to encourage reformulation of products to make sure that it it aligns with, you know, with the, um, you know, good ingredients promise that Health Post has. So they’ve got a very transparent curation process around products, and and that’s something that you know, they’re very transparent about what ingredients they will allow, what they won’t allow in products that they sell. And so, therefore, you know, when you go to shop with health post, you don’t even have to look at the ingredients to know whether it has you know some of these things that people would consider a nasty, so to speak in A in a given health product, you know that when you shop with health Post, they already done that hard work for you. So across there thousands and thousands of products that they sell, you don’t have to look at all the ingredients of the five different vitamin C’s you’re considering, for example, because you’ll know that none of them will have, You know, these ingredients that are on effectively the the red list, so to speak. So, yeah, they’ve definitely extended that to the whole experience. The whole shopping, browsing, buying, you know, experience. It’s definitely, uh, it’s definitely an immersive experience that’s that’s heavily enriched with product information that’s been surfaced in a user friendly way. That’s not intimidating. And it’s not scary. It’s just very seamlessly woven through the shopping experience of the whole site.

[0:13:57] George Reid: Yeah, I’m just on the site now. I’m incredibly impressed by that. I think what what you mentioned? They’re about creating a better browsing experience based on what’s important to the customer, and it’s a really kind of Amazon mindset off placing that customer first and I’m working backwards, and I was gonna slowly doing a little bit with some of their filters. They’re playing with the filters Mawr, but even myself recently looking for some new gym attire on a lot of people. When it comes to polyester, they’re saying kind of always mixed or it’s organic or part organic Polyester. So you’re like Okay, well, which, which is it? A lot of them aren’t given enough about information, but I think you make a really valid point there. If you’re looking to be environmentally conscious with with the products that you’re bringing out, dive that little bit deeper toe every single step and again, you know, I went to a shop recently on Do the shop only. So we got this new was elk. She had in L K the brand. She had elk, some of their product coming to put on the shelves. Supposed to be a very conscious brand. From the environment perspective, it was all turned up. All turned up in plastic, every single item. Despite that, it was gonna be put on a shelf. Every item is individually wrapped in plastic, which goes against all of their things about being environmentally friendly eso again. You’re talking about speaking with your suppliers, working kind of up, the kind of the process lifted and go well, this is what we’re doing. What can you do a little bit more and then sharing that journey with your customers ago? Here’s what we’ve been doing recently and you know it makes great content for your email lists as well, Right? You’re throwing this stuff going. Oh, we’re actually managed to work with our supplier recently to change the amount of plastic that we get delivered our product in. So every single purpose of yours goes into making environment a little bit better. Um, so I think these small attributes are slowly helping you just build a strong brand, which is different. So when people are thinking about Health Post now they’re going at you. That there that company who goes that extra mile, not just in terms of what they’re doing in the supplies they’re working with, but the shopping experiences is flawless because perhaps I want to search by, You know, it’s got Keto here, and then it’s got, like, so many different drop downs with inside of that, and that’s inside its own. You know, the experience is flawless again from a clothing brand. Perhaps you go, I wanna look at just organic cotton. I would look where there’s no polyester in the clothing whatsoever, but it’s very rare. I would see that on a website that goes, Show me your clothing, which has no polyester in it, because I hate polyester for argument’s sake on many companies don’t do it. I think it’s a missed opportunity, Would you say or is it just laziness? Why do you think that is?

[0:16:49] Jason Greenward: It’s It’s the cost and time involved, and it’s also creating a standardization of what you consider those attributes to mean. So what I mean by that is that one of the challenges that health posts had when we went out as a business to all of those suppliers to say, Give us these are the attributes we want to know. Uh, this list of attributes these 60 70 attributes we want to know which of these attributes apply to your products. Everybody has a slightly different interpretation. For example, of our I’ll just give you one example artificial sweetener free, for example. Right? So, you know, Health Post had actually define what those specific attributes or product qualities meant. Toe health post as as a definition. So underneath. Pardon me each attributes. They define what that meant to health posts so that they could have a standard when they went out to the suppliers and said, You know, tick basically all of these attributes that apply to your your product This is what we mean when we say artificial sweetener free, for example, eso I guess the first thing is it’s a huge effort. It’s a huge undertaking. First of all, to even identify what product qualities and attributes that you want to try to gather about the products that you sell. Just even identifying the list in the first instance and identifying what’s not only important to you, but it’s also important to your customers. So, for example, with with most brands, when they start looking at the attributes that they want to apply to their products in the first place, they start looking as a Google analytics. Obviously, that’s a great place to start. So, for example, they’ll be looking at site search keyword terms they’ll be looking at. They’ll be looking at top categories that get clicked on, they’ll be looking at top products to get clicked on. They’ll be looking at their their Google ads, keyword triggers that have driven a lot of traffic to specific products. And they’ll be trying to ferret out off that swathe of information and even purchase history of products. Uh, they’ll be trying to ferret out and talking to the customer service team, for example. They’ll be trying to ferret out what attributes of around their products are actually important to their customer base, and they’ll even sometimes do canvassing. They’ll send out a questionnaire to their customers by email and say, Hey, you know, we’re looking at including, You know, these 10 attributes on our website about our products, which ones of these resonate with you and which ones are important to you, or they’ll just say, Hey, list, can you list some some product qualities that you are interested in S so that we can refine what we collect about our products So you’re right. Most brands don’t do it, but it’s because it’s hard and because it’s time consuming and because it’s expensive. I mean, this exercise was about a circa 18 month exercise that took a lot of internal resource and huge back and forth with brands, because what you find is that when you go out to suppliers to get this information from them, in many instances they don’t even know themselves. Uh, in some cases what attributes apply to their product. So they’ve actually got to do their own homework. They’re gonna do their own research before they can even give you that information back again. So it’s just a It’s a complex, difficult, challenging, expensive thing to do. Onda. As a result of that, most brands just don’t go to the effort.

[0:20:06] George Reid: E think, even even touched on one point now about asking the questions your existing customers. Is that something that brands don’t do enough off anyway, Do they? Do they have, like a finger on the pulse of their customer? Enough. Are they continuously, or do you have a process in place to continuously gather the that gather, gather feedback from from their customer base? Because I don’t know how many brands are doing that successfully. You think of all the purchase you made. How often getting question from you’re that that brand, how often they reaching out? You’re trying to gather mawr feedback from you to shape future purchasing decisions. I know I don’t want instagram. A few brands now are using it, particularly the grocery arm or consumables sector. Where are gonna be? More important was the lifetime value presents lots of opportunities where they’re going. What flavor? What style, What color? What smell do you want next? Now they’re using that feedback to then create new products iterations. Are you seeing the same sort of thing with Britain, France that you’ve been working with where there’s just not enough off a process in place to use your customers to your advantage and also to kind of help make better products, which is gonna be more suitable for them? Do you see this often or not?

[0:21:33] Jason Greenward: Yeah, Look, I think there are. I think you point out some good things which that there are tremendous gaps in many websites still, in terms of creating an effective and cohesive feedback loop that goes back both to the business. But it’s also surfaced other customers by shopping there. So many websites still don’t have product reviews on their website. They don’t have testimonials on their website. They don’t have live chat on their website. They don’t have a feedback tab like a feedback. If I or camp I’ll on their website, they don’t you know they don’t solicit product reviews as an automated, transactional email, say, two weeks after a product ships out to a customer, you know, and that’s something that those air that’s very, very easy, low hanging fruit that really should be, you know, dealt with. And and and the one of the ways in which this can be made easier to manage is by having a a system. Typically, it’s a CRM to be honest. And what what we did post this. For example, we piped the emails that came back through feedback. If I so you can see on the left hand side off the website there, there’s the feedback tab, which is driven by ah platform called feedback. If I and that destination email address automatically whenever there was feedback place that dynamically created a case inside of the CRM of the business, so that so that that could be treated as a case that needed to be dealt with by customer service and, you know, obviously not in every instance requires a response. But in instances where it does that automatically dropped into the feedback loop. The CRM feedback loop in the case and issue management feedback loop off the CRM so that nothing slipped through the cracks and then, obviously, customer service deals with live chat on then and then. Health Post also dynamically solicits and asks for product reviews things about 12 or 14 days after after order his ship. So, you know, I think that there’s many, many ways nowadays, Thio, and I guess you need to have multiple methods, multiple feedback loops because not everybody’s gonna want to use a feedback tab on the website. Not everybody’s gonna want to use live chat. Not everybody’s gonna want to use ah phone number to dial in. Not everybody’s gonna want to get a product review, but almost everyone will choose one of those to give feedback, particularly if they’re not. You know, particularly if they’re not happy about something and they want you to improve something. They’ll figure out a way to get a hold of you, but you just need to make it as easy and frictionless as possible for them to contact you and give you feedback in the way that works for them. The easiest.

[0:24:07] George Reid: That’s that’s so true. A couple of great points there. I mean, I thought that last one in terms of just removing those barriers, that that’s a big word, like different generations, Um could be your products sold to arrange a different ages. A range of different types of people are all gonna have different wants and desires. When it comes to how the leave feedback, you’re gonna have different capabilities when it comes to tech. In terms of I don’t know what QR code on earth, we’re gonna scan that. What do you mean scan this code? I mean, it’s obviously easier now because every time you check in which you have to do all over Australia and public New Zealand, you use the QR code to used to it. But before that, like fast, my dad Oh, here’s a QR code. Will you leave some feedback? You have no idea what to dio. So for him, he’s just not gonna leave any feedback. C one is understanding your audience, but to then if you’ve got a wide audience having them options available to them on removing them hurdles, the other great point, I think which just ties nicely into is that website having that strong website building feedback on your website? On? Also not just feedback in terms of the reviews from your customers, but also gathering information from what they like. Like you’ve got a health post there with feedback. If I What do you like about it? What suggestions do you have? I think this is becoming perhaps more important with the change in reviews on Amazon at the moment and the lack of trust. I think there’s so many articles right now. Must certainly be feeding through to the customers as well rather than just nerdy consultants like you and I, who sent and linked in and read about Amazon reviews. And what a shit show there are right now. Reality is customers are gonna be thinking this is well on our dark. You a lot of them are then going well, let me just check this brand out a little bit online. Let me go on to the website. Is their website a complete mess? Do they have a website? How strong is their presence? What’s the thing going on Instagram? Because the first thing I kind of do now a lot is I look at a brand that Amazon that I’m going onto their site, that I’m going to instagram that I’m going to Facebook. And are they Are they creating great things all over those different touch points? Or is it a complete mets? So that’s why your website, Traditionally, people may have gone or we could just have a basic website because everything we do is on Amazon. But now, with the the nightmare that’s going on reviews, perhaps it needs to be focused on even more now, not just in terms of creating that sustainable success. Because you can’t succeed is a business just on Amazon because it’s a single point of failure. So you need the website anyway. But now, with people going okay, I’m gonna check this brand out. Would you agree that your websites kind of needs to get a bit of a step up, To be honest?

[0:26:50] Jason Greenward: Yeah, well, I mean, I think you made the point early on that you wanna you wanna create an emotional connection. You wanna you wanna prompt an emotional response throughout every step off. You know, the what? I wouldn’t call it the buying journey. I actually call it the brand journey. And so your brand is not what you say it is. It’s It’s what brand your brand is what people perceive it to be. Because perception is reality for that individual for that unique individuals. So if I you know, because I’m a I’m a reasonably demanding, you know, customer. Andi, I had a I had a shock. I’m actually gonna make my own podcast episode specifically around, All right? It was bad, but I But I had a had a scenario where and this is unfortunately chronic in the mentioned that I’m really into my motor sport, and I’m into motorbikes and lots of other things. But I’m currently working on a motorbike, and and I wanted to get some parts online for my local, um, dealer that in theory should have the parts you can’t buy on their website s. So I rang them up. I rang the parts department. I said, you know, do you have this part in stock, you know? No, we don’t. Well, when will you have it? It would be 4 to 6 weeks if you order it today. Oh, well, can you give me the Can you give me the part number then and I’ll just see if anybody else and it was It was not an expensive part. It was a very cheap apart. So it wasn’t like I wasn’t asking about $1000 part we’re talking. It was less than $100 and they didn’t want to give me that part because they didn’t want me to go shop somewhere else. But yet they couldn’t fulfill my need today and they couldn’t fulfill it for another, you know, 4 to 6 weeks on dso You know, I’m thinking myself Well, it’s easy enough for me to go online. I could go toe Rev Zillah in this case in the United States. They have all the parts list and and all the diagrams online on their website, where I can actually get the part number directly from their online interactive diagram on. I could buy the parts through them through the United States. Now, unfortunately, I was actually able toe goto a hardware store and get a part that would that would work in place of this. But I’m thinking to myself, there’s no benefit to you. You’ve actually harmed your brand far worse because A you couldn’t service me online. You treated me like a second class citizen. When I rang your parts department had to wait on hold forever for you to answer my call. Then, when I did get an answer, My call. You don’t have the part in stock and it’s a 2017 motorcycle. So it’s not as if I’m trying to get a part for a 20 year old motorcycle that’s that’s no longer even made. This is a current model motorcycle. You don’t have the parts mainstream part. You can’t get it for 4 to 6 weeks because it’s x Japan. And yet you’re not even gonna help me try to find somewhere else to get it from, because you can’t supply me today. Now that, to me, is the antithesis of a good brand experience. I now have a completely sour taste in my mouth where I’ll go out of my way to avoid this dealer in the future. On I won’t I won’t. I won’t turn to them first, and I probably won’t even turn to them last in the future because of the shockingly bad brand experience that I had And you know, unfortunately for the poor guy working in the parts department, I don’t blame him, he said. It’s just our policy. We were not allowed to give out part numbers over the phone because obviously, then you could go buy it elsewhere easily. And I’m thinking, Well, with the Internet, I still can. So you’re actually you’re actually only shooting yourself in the foot in this environment, whereas you could look like the good guy and give me information that with another few clicks I can get anyway. But you can look like the good guy and leave a good taste in my mouth instead of a bad taste in my mouth.

[0:30:13] George Reid: Beyond that, that really I like that term, their brand journey, and that was part of your brand journey with them, right? And that particular experience you couldn’t buy from them. But they had the opportunity to turn that negative into a positive on. Brands have that all the time, like there are many opportunities where you’ve had or created a bad experience because off Odds Post, for instance, terrific Lee bad or we’re officially terrific. Lee bad. Two years ago, when I first arrived here in Australia, and they got their ass kicked into gear since Amazon arrived. But my point is, there’s going to be issues where it could be items liberal, late item doesn’t have tracking all these sorts of things. You could turn these into a positive, providing you approach it the right way, and that kind of comes down to a lot of customer service. But again, even even on Amazon, I think it z trickier because of your communication with the customer to turn something into a positive, for instance, Amazon could still deliver something late, particularly what’s going on at the moment. It could still be a little bit late, but if you’re unboxing experience that we come back to that was awaiting and voting on emotion, then you’ve managed to create that negative into a positive. We don’t mind that it’s a day late because it was brilliant when it arrived on, they had a really nice card inside, and we connected with some additional value, which later us even further on that being said, it brings onto another point right now. I remember reading some post of yours recently about adding value and really like some of the points you are making about how we can take the opportunities presented in front of US toe add value to that customer. But some of the brands particular Amazon, I think, fail at this massively. I’m continuously helping people kind of think of new ideas of like You can add value here. Add value here. Do you think brands are very bad at this? Or do you think there’s a lack of inspiration? Are you seeing any particularly good examples of brands just throwing in a little bit of value, which could be a guide? It could be an extended warranty. Kind of What? What do your thoughts on that value at peace?

[0:32:25] Jason Greenward: Yeah, Look, I think I think you hit the nail on the head when you were talking about a memorable brand experience, even in a scenario where the initial experience isn’t maybe what the customer fully expected, so and even if it’s something that’s out of your control now, this is a lesson I learned when I was working in hospitality before I ever got into the digital space. This is many of those more than 20 years ago now on. I worked in hospitality and I had a restaurant manager that I was working with a very sort of reasonably upmarket restaurant that I was. I was working as a waiter in this restaurant and and he was a very It was one of the best managers I ever had. And he said, You know, I I used to always get quite frustrated and quite almost angry when you know we would. You know food would take too long from the kitchen or something. You know, steak would come out overcooked or or whatever. Whatever, right? You know, something would go wrong right on down, and the customer would not be 100% happy. As a result, we had a policy is a business that if the server detected that the customer was unhappy in any way and they couldn’t immediately result for the customer, they way were required to escalate it immediately to the duty manager, and that duty manager would go to the table and they would talk to the customer on. That was just even if you had a hint that the customer was unhappy in any way on did, he pointed out to me At that time, he said, You know we actually have an opportunity because customers come into our restaurant and they expect perfection just out of the gate. That’s just they expect they’re paying for a meal. They’re paying for an experience, and they expect perfection. And when we give it to them, it doesn’t stand out because it was what they expected, however, when we when we perform service recovery. So let’s say we over cooked that steak or, you know, it takes an extra 20 minutes to deliver the meal over what we expect and what we target for for our customer experience, Um, and then I, as the duty manager, I go up, I show up, I front up to the customer and I make it right with them, whether it be comping a meal, whether it be giving them a gift card for their next time that they’re in the restaurant or whether it be taking that product away, even though they have half eaten it and giving them a brand new one that’s more to their liking or whatever the case may be. What it doesn’t matter what it is that we did to recover the service, he said. If we do a good job recovering that in service recovery, then that experience of having a great recovery and ah, humble recovery will actually stick in the customer’s mind. MAWR then if they came in and they had no problem whatsoever, and we actually have a chance to stand out as one of the good guys in good girls in their mind in terms of the way that we deal with challenges and problems, we can stand out as the guys that go way above and beyond and impress them to the point where they will tell their friends about the service recovery experience because we treated them so well and with so much respect. So he said, don’t ever get frustrated or angry about situations where we fall short. Just make sure that I have an opportunity. Is the manager to make things right in a memorable way? And I think I think that’s what brands forget. They forget that Ah, customer on the other end, particularly in an e commerce environment, whether it’s buying through a marketplace like Amazon or through an own website doesn’t matter. They expect perfection right nowadays, they expected to be fast. They expected to be accurate. They expected to be cheap. They expected to be free shipping. They you know, they expect the world. And when we deliver on that, it’s just part of the expectation. We haven’t overwhelmed them with something that goes beyond what they expect. However, when something goes wrong, if we recover well and when they ring in or they live, chat or they send feedback to customer service and then customer service overwhelms them with the quality of the way that they deal with that challenge and with a smile on their face and they go above and beyond, you know, sending out a return career path So it’s free for them to return the goods or whatever the case may be, or not even requiring them to return the goods and saying, Look, send us a photo of the damage good or whatever it is, and and we’ll just send you out a brand new And so, you know, we we just want to confirm that it is actually, you know, we want to see how the item was damaged so that we can package this better next time, so it doesn’t happen again on day, and then we’ll send you out a replacement or whatever, whatever the recovery is, the point of the fact is that many brands they do not understand the value off excellent service recovery to the enhancement of their brand value.

[0:36:48] George Reid: I think you’re absolutely killed it there with the great recovery experience, six longer than excellent one on that. That’s so true because you’re right. Everything that’s changing in the Amazon, particularly prime, has driven this consumer mindset. Shall we say off? Well, I expect it to be, Yeah, tomorrow. I remember being frankly disgusted when I arrived in Australia have become accustomed to next day delivery in the U. K. I’m looking to buy some rookie boots, and it was like added after we’ve given me seven day delivery and I was like Are you joking? E said. What’s this thing? This is dreadful. I couldn’t believe it. A capture. I had end up going toe Amazon to look for ruby boots, which is almost unheard off, particularly given that we’re in Australian. It was just starting up. The selection was dreadful, but that negative thing I’ve become accustomed to this way, so you’re absolutely right. In terms of customers are becoming accustomed to excellence if they get it. You know, when I used to get next day delivery as like are great. But in the same token, if I don’t have a bad experience, you can leave an incredibly bitter taste, which I’m ready to tell people about or if it’s turned around like I had a problem with my laptop recently, Microsoft Screen broke. Took it in that just give me a brand new laptop I told loads of people like I was ecstatic about. It was like a sad for the schoolboy running around telling people about how great Mike Software on it was probably a little bit pathetic in hindsight, but lots of people are like actually what I’m about to buy a new laptop. And remember, George Shane, like Microsoft, which is spot on with the customer service on Boom. They just got someone in for 1000 $2000 laptop, which perhaps we’re gonna go to Dell. Can you put a data point on that when you make that connection? Absolutely not, but in terms of building your brand, it’s an obvious thing to do. I think people who people in consumables who missed this I bewildered by some of the brands. I see the consumables category. To be honest with the activities that go about going, you could literally send someone a new a new bar of chocolate, a new bag of protein powder, a new whatever it happens to be because they didn’t like the flavor. I don’t like the flavor. This one it didn’t quite described as well as I was expecting. Boom, Pick whatever flavor you want, we’re going to send it to you next day delivery tomorrow, Andi, immediately. They’ve just gone. Okay, well, I’m going to stick with this protein powder company forever now because they’re great on. Did you kept that customer? I think it’s a really, really valid point there. But you’re absolutely right. Many people, perhaps looking short term, perhaps rubbing their hands together with the margins a little bit going or well, that’s going to cost us an extra X quid or whatever. But if that person works away from the restaurant like you said, that unhappy tells 10 people that 10 people don’t go, then you shafted auras. 10 additional people come. You make your money back and more

[0:39:52] Jason Greenward: correct. Now you’re spot on and and look that that advice that was given to me then, you know, because I was always a bit of a perfectionist. And I tell you that completely and forever altered my way of thinking around, you know, perfection and and being a perfectionist is that, you know, perfection is worse with human beings. Perfection is completely unattainable. But it’s how do we turn around, You know, failures of performance and whatever metric you choose to measure that by How do we turn that around from a negative into an extreme positive? Not just a not just a grudging positive, but in extreme positive for the customer. And I think you know Jesus is set the bar in that area. And there’s a few other you know, major international retailers who have really set the bar in that area and have have written books about it. And, you know, and Amazon themselves have have, you know, in many instances, set the bar of expectation with the customer around service recovery. And it’s it is. It’s just a it’s just a big deal in. It’s a It’s a massive missed opportunity for a lot of online retailers. It really is because there were so embarrassed when something goes wrong that that almost rather ignore it than face it head on and take it as an opportunity to improved and enhance and extend their brand perception in the marketplace. Because that’s what it is.

[0:41:12] George Reid: 100 100% 100% indeed. Now pivoting slightly. I wouldn’t look a bad recommendations on bond. I see a lot of them, but I’m keen to hear what bad recommendations you hear a lot off right now in the Amazon world.

[0:41:26] Jason Greenward: Can u s. So are you saying that like there’s a negative review of a product or what do you Sorry, What do you just Can

[0:41:31] George Reid: you clarify eso? No, in terms of the So what would define you? And I perhaps, is in Amazon expert e commerce expert, consultant, whatever it happens to be. And I think we’re on linked in There’s obviously a mass of information and the Google on Reddit and across all different Facebook groups. There is a massive information about Amazon about e commerce, shopper five, all these sorts of things. And there was lots of recommendations filtered and spread and thrown across all these platforms. And I know I see I see a lot of bad recommendations from other people out there. What are the some of the ones that you’re seeing a lot off, where you’re thinking, Who on earth is going to follow that

[0:42:14] Jason Greenward: look, it’s funny. It’s funny. You should say that. I think you make a excellent point, and I I tend to look at the source right, And I don’t care whether it’s advice on how to be better at Lincoln or more successful on LinkedIn. I don’t I don’t care whether it’s you know how toe sell more on Shopify or Amazon or or you know what your channel mix should being for your vertical or you know how to do Facebook ads better. I don’t really care where, what the advice is, I I tend to look at the source, and I say, Well, are they someone that I would look up to and I would like to emulate? And when we think of something like social media, for example, in social media advice, I look at things like, Well, how many followers did they have? How much content did they put out that I respect? You know how many platforms I have They’ve been successful on. If if I’m looking at social media advice, I’m gonna go to very Gary Vaynerchuk, right? You might not agree with his methods. You you might agree with his personality, but the man is a machine. And at the end of the day, you can’t dispute his success on social media. So if I’m gonna listen to some guy over you know, I’ve got, you know, just over 15,000 followers on Lincoln, for example. And yet I have people coming to me almost every single day and sliding into my DMS and in mail, trying to sell me. They’re linked in course, and they have 1000 followers on LinkedIn. And I’m thinking to myself, Well, why would I wanna replicate your stand and pay 150 bucks for the privilege of taking one of your courses? When you’re you know, I look back and you haven’t posted for a month. You have 1000 followers on LinkedIn and you’re trying to sell me 100 $50. Course, it just it just doesn’t resonate. And and so I think that you know, on. And that’s true of everything. If if I if I have worked with someone or I can see if they can give me an example of their success in a given discipline thing, by all means. You know, like Avinash Kaushik, for example, from From Google. You know, I’ll buy his analytics book analytics 2.0, and I’ll follow his Occam’s razor blogging everything else because he is a demonstrated Google Analytics will just analytics full stop and data science expert for the last 20 years, you know, and he can show that across many different domains, and and that’s why I’ll listen to him. And it’s the same with any expert, you know, quote unquote expert. I look at their track record. I look at their history and I look, I look at them and I say, Is that a result that I would like to travel, figure out and find out how to emulate? And if not, then I just kind of ignore. I just ignore that advice because, ah, lot of people are giving advice outside their lane outside their experience, and it’s purely hypothetical in nature. And for me, I’m all about the practice, the discipline, the honing, the craft of whatever it is that you do. I’ve been doing what I do for 20 years, right? Almost almost 20 years. About 19.5 years now. I’ve been doing what I do for almost 20 years, and it’s probably only in the last 5 to 10 where I really feel I’m starting toe really know my shit, right? Like I’m I’m deep in it every single day on I stay up with absolutely latest trends in what I do on. I’m also working with brands every single day, doing what I do. So I guess I feel reasonably qualified based on that experience, to give the kind of feedback and advice that I do and particularly produce the kind of content that I do. Because, man, do I stay in a narrow lane. I like. I wouldn’t, for example, I wouldn’t consider myself an Amazon experts specifically because I’ve never had May e commerce brand. I managed that sold on Amazon in any significant quantity. So for me, I’m not. I don’t consider myself in Amazon expert unless I’ve had a business that’s been very, very successful selling on Amazon, so I just try to stay in my lane and I looked to people that are doing the same.

[0:46:09] George Reid: Mm. Do you think there’s too much noise at the moment? I think linked in to suddenly going allowed on Facebook, groups of blowing up beyond belief. Do you think there’s just so much noise about the topic that is Amazon as well as in generally comments?

[0:46:24] Jason Greenward: Look, you know, I’m of two minds with that, because the reality is is that when you’ve got pre co vid, we don’t yet know exactly what the Post Cove in numbers is going to be yet. But when we look at New Zealand and we say that e commerce as a percentage of total retail is about 10% we look at Australia. We look at e commerce as a percentage of total retail, being about 15%. When we look at the UK and it’s somewhere between 25 30% of total retail, not enough people, frankly, you’re talking about e commerce, not enough people. Let’s put it this way. Not enough qualified people are talking about it, nor is it got the penetration that those of us that have been working in the industry for years and years would love it to have, you know we like. I like to think I’m an expert. I like to think our industries so awesome and amazing and and, you know e commerce is just is a no brainer. But the data says otherwise. The data says that physical retail still sells the lion’s share of all retail end and owns the lion’s share of all retail spin. So whenever I get on my high horse about e commerce, I just have to think about those statistics. And I’m knocked off of my pedestal very, very quickly on The arrogance dissipates very, very quickly because we’re doing frankly, ah, shitty job at getting the word out about e commerce. And we’re creating frankly shitty experiences in e commerce in many cases, to the point where we don’t own 50% off the retail spend yet. We’re not even close.

[0:47:57] George Reid: Yeah, it’s an interesting way of looking and completely turns out there for me like this. Perhaps we see it is a lot of noise because we’re we’re circling a little to a certain capacity, but you’re right. It’s still a tiny percentage with so much leg room to grow. And I spoke to another Amazon blow recently, he was like, You know, the Amazon thing is just scratching the surface. Like, really, if you really compare it to like you said retailers the whole to so much bigger s, I think Amazon sits around 50% of e commerce in the U. S. And around about 30 35% of e commerce in the UK Even that, then you look OK. What percentage is off the total retail? It’s still tiny, really a za percentage. So there’s loads and loads and loads for this beast to grow out, and I think it is slowly coming. And what’s happening with Cobra is certainly give it a bit of a leg up. But still, there’s so much room for for growth and, um, still so much more to learn for everyone who’s who’s playing in it, right,

[0:49:09] Jason Greenward: ah, 100%. And you, you hit the nail on the head again in terms of we live in an echo chamber that that that’s the reality. And so those of us that Aaron Digital that are digital natives have been working in the space for a very long time. We live in an echo chamber surrounded by other specialists in our space most of the time. And as a result of that, it gives us this false narrative, this false lens on retail, that we’re all powerful. And the reality is we’re a minnow compared to all of retail. And you’re right, you know, Amazon might be 50% of e commerce, the United States, but e commerce the United States is only about 20% of total retail. So realistically, they have about 10% of total retail in United States. Now that’s massive concentration in any one hand of a 350 million person country that that is massive. There’s no doubt about that. But you know, when we’re talking about the room for growth and the room for improvement and the room for phage, it’ll experiences the merging of the online and offline experience to extend the e commerce into the physical space and digital commerce into the physical space. The opportunities, you know, we all we have to do is look to Asia when if you wanna be put to shame and every western country, all we have to do is look to Asia and when we look at biometric purchasing When we look at, uh oh, just the the penetration of e commerce in Asia just smokes the West and the friction free nature of e commerce in those countries, from social commerce and everything on down and mobile payments through wechat and everything else, it is just we are light years behind Asia. So, you know, as I said, anytime I start thinking that we’re doing pretty good and anytime I start thinking, man, we’re starting to really move the needle here. I just start thinking about the real numbers and it puts me back in my place pretty quickly. What do you

[0:50:57] George Reid: do from an educational perspective, then for you personally? When you when you look at Asia, is that something you’re keeping your finger on the pulse a little bit off to be like, What trends are happening there? How will that shape what’s happening then in the Western world? Is that something you’re personally doing and looking into and listening to, or what’s the situation there?

[0:51:19] Jason Greenward: Well, my partners have Chinese have Vietnamese. She’s New Zealand, born and raised, but culturally her, her family’s have Chinese, have Vietnamese, so I definitely have, I guess, a connection to Asia. In that respect, the founder of Mustache Republic is Chinese. My good make Tony and you know a good percentage of our developers are Asian developers from various different parts of Asia. So I guess I’ve got my finger on the polls through family relationships through work relationships through, you know, But I also go out of my way to pay attention to Asia and what’s happening from any commerce perspective in the digital commerce perspective in Asia. It’s something that I that I I It’s a distinct focus for me. But so is the UK, because from a Western country perspective, e commerce penetration in the U. K is the best of any country in the Western world on. As a result of that, I’ll pay very, very close attention to the UK and particularly stats and data around e commerce coming out of the UK, And one of the most interesting stat I read recently that came out of the UK is that since the beginning of covert, I think they did a bit of research. There was ah research group that looked at the number of new e commerce customers, meaning people that had never purchased online in their life. Pre co vid there was within, I think, the first eight weeks of the first lock down There was over 600,000 customers in the UK who shopped online for the very first time in their life during that period. Now, not obviously not all those customers that can convert into forever online only customers. But it just goes to show that when the market is disrupted very rapidly, that behavioral change customer behavioral change can happen really, really quickly. And so you. There’s probably a significant older demographic, for example, where their kids and grandkids were like, Hey, Granddad, let’s show you how toe let’s show you how to order your prescription online because we can’t go down to the local pharmacy because of locked down restrictions. You know, things like that where all of a sudden we’ve got a whole potential new customer base that we never had before. So, yeah, I try to keep my finger on the pulse of the UK market in the Asia market very heavily.

[0:53:35] George Reid: Wow, uh, quite a novel statistic. If you throw, throw it in there, I’m sure we could go on for so much longer, but I think we’ll have to put a pin in it and maybe maybe schedule a future chat for for another podcast. Otherwise, I fear we could go for an hour and a half before we know it. But, Jason, thank you. Thank you so much for for coming to Jack. To me, It’s really good. I know. Actually shed loads of questions. I just completely glazed over as we didn’t really need anything. Which is which is always a good sign of a nice a nice natter. But thanks again and re look forward to getting this baby out. We should be should be going live on Tuesday. Today is Thursday. For those listening on board the fourth speak Thio base in power.

[0:54:20] Jason Greenward: Absolutely not. Was I really, really enjoyed this. And obviously, once you’ve got it all, once you’ve got it all ended up and ready to go. I’ll put it out there and we’ll share it widely.

[0:54:30] George Reid: Julie shows you have you have a good rest of your day and I’ll be in touch about Thanks. Talk to you soon. Bye Bye. Hey, guys, just a quick one. If you are enjoying the podcast on either have some actionable next steps or new ideas. I’d really appreciate if you could one subscribe to the show and leave us a review. Thes are really, really important to us. As you probably know, being in the Amazon world, aunt to If you’re looking for additional support with your brand, head over to the website, it’s always day one dot co dot UK. We’ve got links to other resource is as often our guys speak soon.

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